***Group Read: Steampunk (SPOILERS)

Discussion of our first steampunk selection, The Anubis Gates will begin March 1. See you then!

I'll be there...er, I'll be here then!

Me too!

Find-it-later post

I just pulled it off my shelves and will start on it this afternoon.

Just finished--don't know if I can manage to wait a whole week.

Check -- will return after the first.

It's now March 1, so I thought I'd kick off the conversation...

The Anubis Gates is one of those books that gets me trying to wrap my head around time travel. One of the things I really, really like about it is that it's sort of the anti-Star Trek approach to the subject - no changing the future, no temporal police to try to keep the timeline "pure" etc, etc. So instead of let the plot run wild, Powers used the fixed nature of events to allow us to put a puzzle together as we go - in the end everything connected up and we saw the bigger picture.

Aside from that, I'm a fan of Powers' prose. He's got a way with keeping the action going while still retaining a nicely descriptive way about him, at least for me. I liked how Doyle grows from clueless academic into a more real person through the book.

If you get a chance, check out wikipedia's page on the book - there are some interesting tidbits there. For instance, Byron's doctor in Greece was named Romanelli. Also, William Ashbless has an interesting page:

- He was the invention of Powers and James Blaylock when they were at Cal State Fullerton back in the 1970s.

- Both Powers and Blaylock used him as a character in books at about the same time (Powers in 1983 here in The Anubis Gates and Blaylock a year later in Digging Leviathan) without the other knowing. The editor for both books suggested they get together and get their facts on this (invented) poet straight.

- The William Ashbless Society, in issue 9 of their nesletter, published an article "Regarding the Disappearance of Noted Ashbless Scholar Brendan Doyle".

More on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ashbless

-

I'm supposed to be working right now, but a few quick comments:

First, thank you for introducing us to this book! I really enjoyed it and will definitely be reading more of Tim Powers in the future.

I also enjoyed the approach to time travel. I'm not particularly familiar with Star Trek, but I kept contrasting this book to the recent Newbery winner, When You Reach Me, and The Anubis Gates definitely came out far ahead (maybe it's not fair to compare an adult book to a children's book, but tough). Other than those two, both of which I read in the past month, it's actually been a long time since I read any time travel stories, though I used to enjoy them a lot. Maybe it's time to explore more in that direction.

I will say that I was a bit surprised with the "steampunk" classification, even though this is steampunk by definition. I was expecting more science and less magic.

So, my first steam punk novel and I'm still not sure what that means! What characteristics of this novel truly make it steam punk? I had trouble keeping track of all the personalities in their respective bodies, but I think that was mostly because I did not have uninterrupted reading time. (Five and ten minute stretches was a might tough!) I enjoyed how everything interwove and how although the "outcome" was clearly recorded in history, it really wasn't how it ended at all. (The ka, although I guessed that was coming.) There was a lot more magic involved than I anticipated and I didn't see all that much science brought back in time. I had trouble believing our hero, Doyle/Ashbless could morph from the harried academic to the swashbuckling savior, even with the body switch. Lots of colorful characters and tons of action! I look forward to more discussion. Thanks DrNeutron!

Five and ten minutes stretches must have been very difficult!

I have to admit, I didn't anticipate the ka at the end.

I actually thought the change from academic to swashbuckler was plausible. I can imagine that suddenly being in a super-athletic body would make me want to use that body as much as possible to perform previously-impossible physical feats.

Well, your confusion about why this is steampunk is perhaps a bit justified. This one doesn't have the gadgets and alternate technology usually associated with steampunk stories and it's not Victorian. But at the time, it was grouped with other works of a more "classic steampunk" flavor as something new that had come along.

It *does* have the interplay with historical characters, the take-over-the-world conspiracy that the hero fights, and even the magic that's often part of steampunk works.

I'm going to suggest The Difference Engine as our next read. It's more typical of steampunk. Still, I'm glad you liked it!

Just finished the book. I enjoyed it, I liked the treatment of time travel and the use of 19th century poets added a lustre. I was expecting more technology and science rather than the use of magic and ancient Egyptian gods but it was a great adventure for all that. Loved how it all tied up.
Wouldn't like to come across some of the characters such as Horrabin or Romany in a dark alley.

I've read too many books lately where the boy turns out to be a girl - wonder when I'm going to read one with a boy impersonating a girl? At least here, we are in on that detail from the beginning.

I'm usually reading timeslip novels rather than time travel and I'm having a hard time thinking of the last decent time travel novel I've read.

Just want to add that Jacky was a very enterprising young woman.

I actually ended up feeling really sorry for Romany in the end. Everything just went so horribly wrong for him.

I've read this before, probably twice, but it's been at least 10 years ago and probably much more. I remembered about Doyle being Ashbless, about the end of DogFace Joe, the voyage through the underworld, and about the ka in the final scene, and that was pretty much it. So even though I had some insight into the general structure, there were all these little surprise shocks throughout--Jacky's letter to her mother, Coleridge's part in the scenes in Horrabin's dungeons, the massacre scene in Egypt, the whole trip back in time to Charles II's reign. I think Powers is a master story-teller, and even though some of the scenes reach the limit of my gore/violence boundary, the story carries me past them.

This book meets the criteria of occurring in the 19th century, albeit very early in that century.

#16: I think Powers is a master story-teller.

I second that sentiment. The Anubis Gates manages to be one of those books where I just get so swept up in the story that I cannot wait to see where it heads next. This was a re-read for me - I read it originally in 2008 - and I was just as caught up in the story this time around as I was the first time I read it. For me, that is one of the marks of a good book.

I also found that this book was not what I was expecting from a steampunk read but I loved this book.

Even though this book is more than 25 years old now, most of the ideas in it felt completely new to me - it was unlike anything else I've read (which may be because I've completely missed any more recent books like this).

When Ashbless didn't show up in the pub where Doyle was waiting for him I had an inkling that Doyle would end up discovering he was Ashbless but I didn't see the body switch coming, or the ka in the final scene.

For some reason I kept thinking we were going to find out that The Master was some sort of vampire - maybe expecting vampires too much after Soulless?

And after having been terrified by reading Stephen King's It in my teens I found Horrabin particularly scary...

I really enjoyed Tim Powers' writing and will definitely be looking out for more of his books :-) Thank you drneutron!

Heather, if you want a truly scary one, try The Stress of her Regard--not vampires but succubi, and also involving Romantic poets. Perhaps my favorite to date is Last Call, set in Las Vegas in modern times. However, I haven't read Declare yet--been sitting in my TBR pile for way too long. I really need to move it up near the top. None of these is considered steampunk, btw.

I think the most intriguing part of this book for me was the overtones of fate in it. As Ashbless/Doyle realize that they always have and always will be the same person you begin to wonder about memories. Are Doyle's memories changing as he "re-writes" the past or is he locked into some endless loop that cannot be changed.

His comment on Ashbless's poetry was somewhat boggling to me. He wasn't creating it....he was only copying it down from what he had memorized...so where was it really coming from? I had to stop reading and think about that one for awhile.

I wasn't sure what to expect since this is my first steampunk book and when I started it, I still didn't quite understand the definition of this genre.

I can see this as a pretty scary movie actually ... especially with what Horrabin did to his father, and the description of Dog Faced Joe needing to chew the tongue so that the body left behind.

You know... I had the same thought ... if Ashbless had created the poem to begin with, how come Doyle couldn't 'write' it but could only copy from memory? Once he realized that he and Ashbless are the same person how come he didn't have previous memories as Ashbless.

But I did so enjoy this book. Not a dull moment at all.

He didn't have previous memories as Ashbless because he went back to Ashbless so in his mind/body they hadn't really happened yet. They were new to him. So in essence no one created the poem...it was just there.

ETA: my spelling needs help

I'm home with a head cold and my daughter picked up the book for me as it arrived at my library in the nick of time. I'm going off now to start it. Talk to you soon!

#16: I had pretty much the same combination of recognition and rediscovery. I also remembered the stilt-walking clown, Doyle's pig-Latin message to himself, and the chaps with chains connecting their ankles to the earth. But the whole thing is such a manic carnival ride it would nearly have been impossible to remember it all. I had completely forgotten about the Byron clone and everything with Coleridge.

#20: I also found myself thinking about fate. So many characters meet their fate on the road they take to avoid it: Darrow switches bodies to live forever only to turn himself into a target. Horrabin defeats & deforms his father, only to make him the agent of his destruction. Romany escapes into the past in order to change the present, only to guarantee it. Doyle himself goes into the past in order to discover something original, only to find himself living a biography he already knows.

#12 Thanks for the steam punk clarification DrN! I did thoroughly enjoy the book and now that you have sucked me into yet another genre, I look forward to whatever book you suggest as our next group read.

#22 I was also struck by the bizarre thought that the poetry was always there. Makes me wonder where our leaps of genius stem from?!

#24 Loved your second comment about fate. I could imagine the freedom that Ashbless felt when the Ka died in his place and he found himself with an unforeseeable future again. I wonder how Ashbless found the guts to show up at his appointed death in the first place!? Not sure I would have. Was he afraid to change the future?

Another concept that makes you think...similar to how the poetry just was...is that Ashbless would never have shown up for his death if he didn't already know from his own biography that he was going to die there.

#25: A younger Doyle also wondered how he would find the guts to show up at his appointed death. I got the impression that when the time came, he had lost his wife & most of the joy was gone from his life so he figured it was his time: less a matter of courage than one of resignation.

It's interesting, though, that Doyle finally escapes his fate by meeting it head-on.

I finally reviewed The Anubis Gates and ronincats reminded me to post my review which can be found here

Oh, that's a point. Now I've read it I ought to say something about it.

Review here.

#24 That's one of the things that struck me: however hard they tried make certain things happen, or to avoid certain things, they couldn't change them. So much was inescapable: the whole thing was very fatalistic.

I've been pondering all the comments above and found myself wondering whether it was Doyle's realisation that he was Ashbless that gave him the courage to do all the heroic things he did. Maybe knowing he wasn't going to die for some time made him feel untouchable to a certain extent? I think I'd need to reread the book again to see whether that could work and it still doesn't explain how/why he could go to face his death at the end. And I wondered if, as well as Doyle feeling a sense of freedom when he didn't die at the end, whether he might also feel afraid. Up to that point he'd known (to a certain extent) what was going to happen to him when, and although restrictive that could make you feel quite secure too.

I liked the fact that during his trip through the underworld Doyle realises that this was what his poem was about. Although that still doesn't completely explain when it actually got written. It reminded me of the Shakespeare discussion in the fourth Thursday Next book by Jasper Fforde (Something Rotten). I wonder if Fforde had read The Anubis Gates? Although it might be a fairly common idea.

I also really enjoyed the surrealness of Coleridge thinking the whole experience he had in Horrabin's dungeons was completely drug-induced and not real. That managed to turn a section I would otherwise have found pretty scary into a part of the book that I look back on quite fondly.

And, possibly slightly off-topic, but I saw Tim Burton's film of Alice in Wonderland last night (very good btw) and on the way home suddenly thought that a Tim Burton production of The Anubis Gates with Johnny Depp as Horrabin might work alarmingly well.

Hmmm. Intriguing idea. A Burton/Depp version of Anubis Gates would certainly be interesting!

I am rather certain that I would not be able to view it. Movies are too explicit about details that my mind thankfully glides over the surface of, and I would have nightmares for weeks if I actually had to watch it. Despite my deep and abiding love of Johnny Depp's performances.

Oooh....now that's a good idea. I think if anyone can make a movie out of The Anubis Gates it will be Burton. I shudder at the thought of Debb as Horrabin. Definitely not one for children!

wondering whether it was Doyle's realisation that he was Ashbless that gave him the courage to do all the heroic things he did. Maybe knowing he wasn't going to die for some time made him feel untouchable to a certain extent?

I definitely think this was the case. Doesn't he even refer to it explicitly, maybe towards the very end? He wasn't afraid to face Horrabin/Romanelli because he "knew" he wasn't supposed to die for years yet.

I enjoyed the moment of crisis he has when he starts to wonder if the "real' Ashbless dies, and the Ashbless ka is what continues through the history. It forced him to make a decision to escape and fight for his life instead of letting an imitation continue his histroy for him.

I wonder if this was a re-read...some things made me wince in recognition (the Thames boat scene in particular bothered me a lot, and Ashbless's torture at Romanelli's hands) but others felt as fresh as November snow and about as chilling.

To me, Ashbless leaving the cottage after 35 years of knowing what was coming next seemed more like, oh not resignation so much as simple tiredness. He's ready to go. And then to find the ka (which was guaranteed to happen once the ka escaped) reinvigorates him because he's finally SURPRISED again!

The Difference Engine sounds like a wonderful next book.

#32 Thinking about it Roni, I think you're right. I wouldn't be able to watch it either!

I finally finished the book and loved it. It was an exciting read. One thing I noticed when I read it was that I could not understand the part where Lucky took Doyle to see the bones. What did that have to do with anything? Then later of course we find out that Lucky was Romany living all the way into 1810. I liked that touch.
--BJ

I just thought of something that I was wondering about. Did both Darrow and Dog Face Joe die in Chinnie's body? Did Darrow die and then Joe entered the body and die? Or did the switch happen so that Darrow lived?
--BJ

Well, I finished it a little later than most, so not much to add. It was a fun ride, though.

But I did want to say thanks for the clarification for how it fits (and doesn't) into the genre and the info on "William Ashbless" (silly me, I thought he was one of the historical figures!). Now I kinda want to read Digging Leviathan to see how his character shows up there...

>39 billiejean: I love it that the book had enough complexity that I can barely remember details like this, less than two weeks after reading it. What body went out the window, Chinnie's or the one that Dog Face Joe was using as the butler? And what happened to the other body?

Darrow was in Chinnie's body. As Dog Face Joe threw himself out the window in the butler's body, he switched with Darrow. Darrow died in the butler's body as it crashed to the street. Dog Face Joe found himself in a mortally damaged body, much to his dismay, and died in Chinnie's body. Two birds with one stone, so to speak.

>38 billiejean: BillieJean, Lucky, the aged ka that was initially Romany, still believed that Doyle had died in the inn back in whatever year they went back to during the reign of Charles the Second. So he had bought that inn and kept its interior in its burnt state so that he could show Doyle his own burnt bones. A madman's private revenge.

I finished the book yesterday and it felt like I had just finished a roller coaster ride! What fun!

If ever I feel like facing another challenge, I want to get a big piece of butcher paper and try and chart the characters, and kas, and Dog Face Joe back and forth through time. I don't know what I would do with it when I was done but it would be fun. Has anyone else tried to do something like this?

Just finished the book. I almost put it down about 20 pages away from the second part. It just seemed like Powers threw me right into the story, bur then just kept dragging through Doyle's whole initial experience in London and I was quickly losing interest. At that point, I just wanted the story to move. However, beserene convinced me to keep going, that it would get better, and I'm glad that I stuck with it. I do think that some of the middle of the second part was, again, a little too long, but I loved how he managed to tie SO many plot threads together and tie them up nicely, so that every character's story was thoroughly told (except, of course, for Ashbless' new found freedom from his "pre-destined" story at the end).

So are we supposed to discuss The Affinity Bridge in this same thread?

Well, I'm just going to start talking to myself and see if anyone joins in.

I liked The Affinity Bridge well enough, but I didn't think it lived up to The Anubis Gates. In The Anubis Gates, every plot element fit together so perfectly in the end, but in The Affinity Bridge some things seemed sort of extraneous. The situation with Jack(?) Coulthard, for example, seemed pretty weakly-developed: he was missing and suspected of being attacked by zombies, so that his his sister worried throughout the book... and then at the end he just conveniently turned up, and although he had been bitten he was immune anyway?

Also, I didn't understand why Chapman shot Villiers and then went on to say that he thought the Queen would choose to excuse their questionable morals and use the automata once she saw how useful they were. Weren't his plans impossible once Villiers was dead?

Still, I don't regret the time spent on this book, and I'm finding that I like the general concept of steampunk more and more.

Yep, that was the plan. Thanks for kicking us off!

Interesting little epilogue, I thought. I was wondering what that meant exactly.

It took quite a while to find out what the affinity bridge was. I was kind of hoping that Amelia would get out of the institution that she was in. But I have to say that I really liked the book -- even though it had zombies which totally creep me out ever since watching Night of the Living Dead late at night all by myself. I liked the personalities of the various characters.

#46 And you know, not only was Coulthard immune to the plague, but so was Sir Maurice. Kind of surprising.

Another great read! Thanks for choosing the book.
--BJ

I found this book to be really annoying actually. It should have been amazing. Zombies AND robots? How could that ever be boring? But it really was.

The most annoying thing for me was the poor female sidekick. Every page she's being reminded that Oh, Woe am I to be female in Victorian England! Everyone thinks so little of me! I'm so lucky to even have a job! I hope I don't get squeamish! If these were truly antiquated sentiments, I would think of it as part of the setting. Instead, real life is actually like this and it was unpleasant to constantly be reminded.

Take, for instance, the scene where she's fighting the guy and Newbury rescues her. I get the feeling that George Mann thinks he's doing some kind of favor to womankind by showing that she was able to fight the guy halfway off by herself, and that the hero didn't come and rescue her until the end. Wow, thanks for the boost in my self esteem George.

I realize that my above comments came off as completely negative. There were aspects of this book that I enjoyed as well. If the coming sequel has more Queen Victoria, for instance, I will pick it up. That last chapter was the best part of the whole book!

The scene where she's fighting the guy with the poker annoyed me too (if that's the scene you're thinking of). I couldn't believe Newbury would come and thoughtlessly distract her from the fight without any sort of plan, and the following chase scene seemed pretty unnecessary.

I thought The Anubis Gates was definitely the better book. This one fit my preconceptions of a steampunk novel more.

#49 I read the scene where Veronica has cornered the fake policeman with the poker a bit differently. To me it seemed that she had the situation completely under control until Newbury turned up and distracted her. So Newbury messed it up, I don't think Veronica needed rescuing at all.

In fact Newbury annoyed me, all those action sequences where he clearly shouldn't be fighting and the stitches tearing and him coming close to death again. If they were supposed to be gripping they had the opposite effect on me.

Apart from that I enjoyed the book. I liked the mystery aspect of the book. I think I will get the sequel out of the library at some point to find out what happens to Anne and what was going on with Queen Victoria and Veronica. And a book where the characters are obsessed with Earl Grey tea makes me happy!

And I loved the UK book cover

Hmm. What happened to this discussion?

Sort of died off, didn't it.

Have we picked a third book?
--BJ

I thought I'd gather some choices this weekend and see what people think.

Would you consider Perdido Street Station?

#57 I'd second Perdido Street Station if everyone can get hold of a copy.

Boo, that's one of the few decent contemporary books that I've managed to find as a free e-book, so I've been saving it until I actually get an e-reader.

But of course, I'll read it anyway if that's what the group decides.

We should discuss this in the non-spoiler thread, though.

That's actually my first choice for the next book! I've moved over to the non-spoiler thread.

I've finished! My non-spoiler review/thoughts copied from my thread until everyone's finished:

"Wow. This book was our latest steampunk group read and it completely blew me away. I read for pleasure rather than reading critically so that's not to say this was a perfect book with no flaws, but the story had me so completely enthralled that I picked it up to read at every opportunity I got and finished it in 5 days despite its 880 pages.

It's probably not a book that everyone would enjoy. It's a blend of fantasy, science-fiction, steampunk, urban fantasy and horror and it can be quite gritty and dark at times as well as scary. I would not recommend reading this one on your own late at night! Some reviews have complained that the book takes too long to get going, it's true that you don't pick up the main story arc until you're about 300 pages in but I was fascinated with the world and characters Mieville had created and didn't mind this at all. This is one of the most imaginative and strange books I've read."

I'm really looking forward to hearing what everyone else thinks!

Nice review! That matches my thoughts on the book as well. Mieville's use of setting as a character in the story just amazes me. First with New Crobuzon as a place with a spirit and personality of it's own, then lately with The City and the City with *two* cities like that.

I've started part 4 'A plague of nightmares', where the plot has suddenly thickened !
I'm enjoying the author's inventiveness, his characters and descriptions.
I'm unsure of the definition of steampunk but if this book is typical of the genre I'll be reading more.

Doesn't look like anyone else is reading Perdido Street Station but I am enjoying it anyway !
Have 130 pages to go and really want to find out what happens, but I'm running out of steam (accidental pun !?), so will finish it tomorrow.
Will read his other novels, and The Anubis Gates as well.

#62 Thank you! I hadn't thought of the city as a character but I think you're right.

#63 Wikipedia's got quite a good definition of steampunk here. I'd say that Perdido Street Station falls within the definition. All of the steampunk reads we've done so far have been very different so I don't know that this book is typical of the genre because I'm still not sure what is typical of the genre! I'd say PSS is darker and weirder than other steampunk books I've read, I think it's part of another literary sub-genre called New Weird which I had never heard of before.

Completely agree about the author's inventiveness - where does he get all this stuff from?

#65 What did you think of the book overall? I haven't read anything else by Mieville, but like you I am planning to look for more of his books.

I would definitely recommend The Anubis Gates, I enjoyed that a lot when we read it earlier this year.

I finally finished the book today. I thought that the title was brilliant, so I was excited to get started. But the book took a while to get going for me. It is not usual for me to get a little bogged down with all the world-building in books, since I do not usually read SFF. Once it got going I was drawn into the story. I did think that the ending took a little long to happen. So I would have made the book somewhat shorter, I think. Overall, it was a good read.
--BJ